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By M. Abdellatif

Keywords: Magnesium, pyrometallurgy, Mintek Extensive testwork on atmospheric thermal magnesium production has highlighted certain important fundamental and operational factors that have a major influence on magnesium extraction and its extraction rate, the condensation efficiency of magnesium, as well as on the quality of the condensed metal. The possible impact of these factors on the selection and preparation of raw materials, recipe choice, furnace electrical energy consumption, and on the refining requirements of the crude magnesium is discussed. Selected pilot plant operational and metallurgical data are also presented.

Jan 1, 2006

By A. V. Roschin, N. V. Malkov, V. N. Karnoukhov, V. E. Roschin

Reduction interactions in solid phases are widespread and occur in most complex metallurgical processes. Among these processes, reactions between oxides and carbon have a special importance. The authors conducted experiments for comparison of reduction by different reducing agents of impregnated chromite ores, in which grains of the reducible chromite spinel are isolated from direct contact with the reducing agent by layers of non-ore material. The results of the experiments have revealed that the beginning of reduction is preceded by thermal and impurity order-disorder transformation of the oxide lattice whilst the transformation of the oxide lattice into the metal lattice takes place as a result of removal of oxygen anions from the zone of metal germ nucleation. Since anions are charge carriers, increase of their mobility can be monitored by changes in electrical conductivity of oxides. Respective measurements of electrical resistance of ores of different metals and a number of pure refractory oxides under heating have indicated that the beginning of reduction coincides with the time of drastic (tens of thousands times) increase of conductivity of the oxides. Besides, the temperature of the beginning of carbon-thermal reduction is in line with the Tammann temperature, i.e. the temperature of transition from the predominantly surface diffusion to volume diffusion. Segregation of metals from the oxide lattice occurs as a result of merging of anion vacancies with defect electrons on defects of the oxide lattice. The transformation of the oxide lattice into the metal lattice requires a certain concentration of anion vacancies and inflow of electrons from the reducing agent to the site of metal segregation. Such inflow has no difficulties due to the mixed anion-electron nature of high-temperature conductivity of oxides. Thus, the reduction is not determined by oxygen diffusion, it is determined by oxygen vacancies diffusion whose speed exceeds the speed of oxygen diffusion by orders of magnitude. This determines that the kinetics of reduction considerably exceeds the kinetics of oxidation at similar temperatures since oxidation proceeds by means of mass transfer of oxygen through the layer of the generated oxide.

Jan 1, 2004

By A. McGarr

The shear stress t that can be sustained by the rock mass in the environs of a mining-induced earthquake controls the near-fault peak ground velocity v of that event according to v=0.25(ß/G)t, where ß is the shear wave speed and G is the modulus of rigidity. To estimate t at mining depths, I review the results of four studies involving Witwatersrand tremors that relate to the bulk shear strength. The first and most general analysis uses the common assumptions that the seismogenic crust is pervasively faulted, has hydrostatic pore pressure before mining, and an extensional stress state that is close to failure. Mining operations reduce the pore pressure to zero within the mine and redistribute the stresses such that, in localized regions, the state of stress is again at the point of failure. Laboratory friction experiments can be used to estimate t in the zero-pore-pressure regime. Second, model calculations of states of stress in the vicinity of mining at about 3 km depth indicated the shear stress available to cause faulting near the centre of a distribution of induced earthquakes. Third, laboratory experiments combined with microscopic analyses of fault gouge from the rupture zone of a mining-induced event provided an estimate of the average shear stress acting on the fault to cause this earthquake at a depth of 2 km. Fourth, moment tensors determined for mining-induced earthquakes usually show substantial implosive components, from which it is straightforward to estimate t. These four different analyses yield estimates of t that fall in the range 30to 61 MPa which implies that near-fault particle velocities could be as high as about 1.5 m/s. To the extent that the causative fault ruptures previously intact rock, both t and v, in localized regions, could be several times higher than 61 MPa and 1.5 m/s.

Jan 1, 2002

By N. M. Skarbøvig

Safety nets have been used selectively in several South African mines over the years. Recently, however, an increased emphasis on mine safety has seen a resurgence of their utilization underground. This renewed interest has, however, also raised questions about the design and performance of these nets and their practical applications underground; these are the subjects of this paper. Generally, mine safety nets are used to protect personnel from falling rock in temporarily supported development ends, tunnels, ASGs and stopes. These diverse applications each require specific net designs, resulting in a wide product range. As a rule, however, mine safety nets need to carry specified static or dynamic loads with the least possible deformation. Because of the application-specific characteristics of mine safety nets, there is no South African national standard for them. Consequently, neither the SABS, nor the CSIR, performs standard tests on these components. In 2007, therefore, SIMRAC made available their Savuka facility for the testing of mine safety nets; the Savuka drop test became the accepted industry test standard for mine safety nets. From late 2007 to mid 2009, Norsenet, in collaboration with SRK Consulting, the designated operators of the site, conducted approximately 200 tests, which formed the core of Norsenet's database of safety net performance under various loading conditions. The test specimens comprised a wide range of net materials and config¬urations; the materials included: high density polyethylene, polypropylene, polyester, nylon, as well as a blend of polyester and polypropylene used primarily for reinforcement ropes. Net configurations encompassed the following parameters: net type, i.e., knotted nets or sewn nets; net strand type, i.e., braids, twines, or webbing; strand size; mesh size; mesh orientation, i.e., parallel or oblique to the net edge; net edge reinforcement, i.e., knotted, tied, with or without reinforcement ropes; internal reinforcement ropes, i.e., diagonal ropes and/or orthogonal ropes; as well as net attachment options, including loops and chainlinks. From the number of variables listed above, and the limited number of tests available, it can be appreciated that the findings of the test series required careful scrutiny. Nevertheless, principal performance factors clearly emerged: besides the obvious net mesh variables, such as net strand material, strand diameter and mesh size, it was the configuration of the reinforcement ropes and their attachment to the net panel which had the strongest influence on net performance. All the structural elements of a safety net need to work together to transfer the imposed load from the net panel, through the reinforcement ropes, to the net attachment points. In this load transference chain, the weakest link limits the strength of the structure. From this development work, Norsenet has gained valuable expertise to custom-design and manufacture nets to clients' specifications. The examples presented in the paper will also show the experience acquired in the installation of nets underground. Future work will include the establishment of a state-of-the-art net testing facility at Norsenet's factory in Vredenburg.. Keywords Mine safety net, safety net, protective device, mine safety, safety net design, safety net performance, safety net applications.

Jan 1, 2011

By A. E. Lewis

The emphasis of this paper is on the characterization and testing of the slag produced by a secondary lead refinery. This work forms part of a broader investigation aimed at reducing loss of valuable product from the process as well as minimizing the environmental impact of the process wastes. It was this work that led to a critical examination of the standard waste classification tests. Characterization of the slag was carried out using a number of complementary techniques. In the broader context, the slag characterization aided in identifying process deficiencies and thus was a critical tool in suggesting potential for process optimization. For this study, the slag characterization provided a relatively comprehensive picture of the composition and properties of the slag, which facilitated understanding the behaviour of the slag under batch test conditions. On the basis of quantity of hazardous components alone, the slag is hazardous according to South African Acceptable Risk Limits (ARL). However, when both the quantity and the leach potential of the hazardous components is taken into account, standard waste tests carried out by three independent agencies indicate that the slag should not be classified as hazardous according to local regulations. Also, according to United States Environmental Protection Agency (US EPA) limits, which are independent of the quantity of the waste, the slag would not be classified as hazardous. The standard waste tests used by the independent agencies was the Toxicity Characteristic Leach Procedure (TCLP), a test which was developed by the US EPA to classify hazardous wastes. One of the requirements of this batch test is that it should be quick, simple to carry out and that the results should be reproducible. Previously, the applicability of the TCLP test to mineral processing and metallurgical wastes has been challenged on a number of points. Additional testing of the slag was carried out using both the TCLP and the Synthetic Precipitation Leach Procedure (SPLP) recommended by the American National Mining Association as being more appropriate for mineral processing wastes. The particular physical and chemical characteristics of the secondary lead slag highlighted additional limitations of both the TCLP and SPLP tests as standard laboratory batch procedures. Keywords: environmental protection, secondary lead processing, slag, leach testing, TCLP, SPLP, ARL, hazardous waste, batch tests

Jan 1, 2000

By S. E. Olsen, K. Tang

The complex heterogeneous equilibria associated with the production of manganese ferroalloys have been simulated by employing recently developed thermochemical databases. The non-ideal Mn-Fe-Si-C alloy and the MnO-SiO2-Al2O3-CaO-MgO-FeO slag system have been modelled separately by the compound energy and cellular model. A large number of experimental thermodynamic and phase-equilibrium data were used to evaluate the model parameters for the liquid and solid Mn-Fe-Si-C phases. In addition to the liquid metal phase, solid mixture phases occurring in the Mn-Fe-Si-C system have also been studied. Over 500 measured equilibrium data have been utilised to verify and calibrate the model calculations. The paper will present typical simulation results, from activities of components to multicomponent heterogeneous equilibria. Good agreements can be obtained for many important technological parameters such as carbon solubility, phase relations and equilibrium diagrams, element distribution as function of temperature and slag composition etc. Application of the present models to the silicomanganese production will be demonstrated in this paper.

Jan 1, 2004

By D. G. Krige

Using chip sample data and spatial structure parameters from a large mined-out section of a South African gold mine the advantages to be gained from a regular underground borehole drilling programme have been investigated for short- and medium- to long-term planning based on block valuations. The results have been compared with the current position, which relies invariably on the extrapolation of limited peripheral sampling data from raises, gullies or stope faces. Some preliminary work has also been done regarding the implications of such underground drilling on costs used for the present pay limit calculations. The results of the study, though preliminary, show that the net advantage of advance regular underground drilling could be substantial and that a more intensive follow-up research is warranted.

Jan 1, 2003

By J. Kempken, R. Degel, J. Kunze, R. König

The FeNi technology is currently dominated by high-power submerged arc furnaces, often designed as smelter as "two-inline-solution". To achieve the intended high efficiency, state-of-the-art design in good correlation with ores and reductants and an integrated layout of the whole plant is of great importance. An introduction will be given to general aspects in the production FeNi, plus a detailed overview of design principles for large FeNi smelters and finally some examples of innovations and research projects concerning Fe-Ni.

Jan 1, 2007

By M. Abdellatif

The Mintek Thermal Magnesium Process (MTMP) process is based on DC open arc metallothermic smelting of calcined dolomite at normal pressure and temperatures of 1650?1750°C. The process was demonstrated at the pilot scale in the period 2000?2004. Major changes to the MTMP pilot plant were made throughout the development period, which lasted for about five years. The changes included design and installation of new equipment, modification of existing equipment, changes in the metallurgical approach in terms of feed rates, feed recipes, furnace operating temperatures, cold and hot dolime feeding, and steady and systematic changes in the operating procedures and maintenance of the plant. As a result, the performance of the pilot plant gradually improved from one campaign to the next, in terms of availability and in particular the condensation efficiency. In Run 10, the process was successfully demonstrated over an 8-day campaign. Keywords Magnesium, condensation efficiency, DC arc furnace, silicothermic reduction.

Jan 1, 2011

By J. A. Kromhout, J. Trouw, A. A. Kamperman, M. Kick

Mould powders play an important role in the stability of the continuous casting process. The main functions of mould powders are to provide sufficient lubrication and to control the horizontal heat transfer. Because process control of thin slab casting is more stringent, it is generally assumed that mould powder properties become more critical as well. In 2000, the Direct Sheet Plant at Corus IJmuiden (DSP) was commissioned, incorporating a thin slab caster designed for casting speeds up to 6 m/min. During commissioning, several operational problems with mould powders were encountered i.e. insufficient liquid pool depth and the formation of rims/lumps. To investigate the operational mould powder problems, some of the mould powders were characterized using physical and mineralogical methods. The results were linked to operational experiences. It was concluded that for thin slab casting, a stable slag formation is obtained with a proper choice of free carbon and an even distribution of the carbon particles within the granules. The physical properties of mould powders are not as critical as expected when the additional mineralogical requirements are taken into account. Keywords: mould powder, characterization methods, thin slab casting.

Jan 1, 2004

By A. E. Lewis

Particle morphology is a term that is used to describe the overall external shape and appearance of particulate solids. From the physical point of view, a precipitated solid is characterized primarily by the size and morphology of the particles (Sohnel andGarside, 1992). If the morphology of the crystal structures is to be related to the processing conditions, then the morphologies need to be quantified in some way. This can be achieved by using surface area measurements as well as fractal dimensions. The key idea is that rugged and indeterminate systems can be described by using a fractional number that describes the ruggedness of the system (Kaye, 1989). In other words, when the complexity of a structure, such as an agglomerate, increases with increasing magnification, it is useful to employ fractal dimensions to describe the structure. Fractal geometry proposes that, instead of attempting to measure the length of an irregular boundary, the rate at which the length of the boundary approaches infinity with increasing resolution should be calculated. Cross-sectional profiles of rugged particles can thus be quantified using the fractal dimension, and a measurement of the ruggedness of the morphology obtained. One of the additional uses of measuring the fractal dimension is that the measured value can be related to the physical properties and formation characteristics of the particle (Kaye and Trottier,1995). The morphology of nickel crystals was quantified with fractal dimension calculations of particle cross-sections. Particle cross-sections were obtained by mounting the particles in resin and polishing back. These were then photographed using Scanning Electron Microscopy and the resulting profiles analysed using the structured walk technique.

Jan 1, 2001

By A. More, J. Bullón

Metal casting is one of the most important operations in ferroalloys factories. After the tapping of the furnace and the depuration of the metal, the preparation for customers with cooling, crushing and sizing begins. In total production costs, this contains around 8 % of the total cost of the metal, depending on the value of the fines and other important parameters. From an investment point of view, this represents around 20% of the total capital for a new furnace. Casting onto a water-refrigerated copper plate is not new for molten metals. In steel, continuous casting machines are normal in every factory. Water granulation casting exists at some ferroalloys plants. However, the majority of plants and production technology still use the technology of lumping, crushing and sizing. This technology is time consuming, produces fines and requires a relatively large work force. In 2001, Ferroatlantica put into operation a new water-cooled copper casting-machine, which seems to be a very convenient solution to solve all these problems. It is in operation at a silicon factory; the same place where the new ELSA electrode was developed for silicon metal production. This paper describes our experiences using it.

Jan 1, 2004

By C. N. Harman, N. S. S. Rama Rao

Production of Ferro-alloys through submerged electric arc furnace involves use of electric power as one of the major inputs. Hence the production by this power intensive process can be made economically more competitive if the specific power requirement for smelting each ton of the product is brought down. This becomes all the more necessary where the power cost is comparatively high, like in India. Since the day FACOR started production of Ferro Chrome in 1968, briquetted chromite fines along with lumpy ores were used as feed. Subsequently the increase in the proportion of briquettes and reduction in lumpy ore helped in increasing the use of chromite fines and also brought down the specific power requirement. Meantime FACOR had been closely watching the technical development of use of sintered pellets in Outokumpu and SRC Processes which need still lower specific power. But the high capital requirement for a pelletisation plant kept FACOR from introducing pellets feed to their Ferro chrome furnaces. So this was postponed to be adopted in future. In February 2004 in the ?1st Ferro-Alloys India?, a paper [1] was presented by Dr. Amit Chatterjee. In the questions period after the presentation of the paper there came up a discussion in which it was revealed that with the Indian high grade chrome ores it was not possible to make sufficiently strong pellets, unless a larger percentage of bentonite is used as binder. This is because the Indian high grade Chrome ores have different mineralogy of gangue content compared to low grade ores in Finland and South Africa. Higher usage of bentonite gives rise to higher slag volume and this would result in increased specific power. Since FACOR had plans to go in future for sintered pellets feed, this gave rise to a doubt on success of pelletisation for Indian high-grade chrome ores. This prompted FACOR to take up experimental production of sintered chromite pellets and use of the same in one of their existing furnaces for production of high carbon Ferro chrome. The results are encouraging and are summarized in the paper.

Jan 1, 2007

By Philippe Dumont

?Lay out of the tunnel section ?General ?Geology ?Tunnels methods ?Stations constraints ?Impacts on tunnels ?Design ?Programs

By D. Yu. Paleev, O. Yu. Lukashov, A. Yu. Krainov, E. R. Shrager, I. M. Vasenin

The gas-dynamic method is presented of calculation of explosion-proof distances during an explosion of the methane-air mixture in mine working. On the basis of this method is modelled of shock waves interaction with explosion protective parachute partitions, obstructions and water barriers. Calculations have been carried out of attenuation factors of shock waves during their interaction with explosion protective structures, arranged near conjugation zones of mine workings. Possibilities have been analysed of suppression of intensity of shock waves and of propagation of shock waves control in mine working network of coal mines by installation of explosion protective structures.

Jan 1, 2003

By J. Ndlovu, R. Hundermark

Keywords: Anglo Platinum, Polokwane Smelter, pyrometallurgy, metallurgy, platinum, platinum group metals, PGM, base metals, nickel, copper, sulphide smelting, electric furnace, Söderberg, electrode, matte, slag, flash drying, matte casting, crushing, granulation Anglo Platinum?s Polokwane Smelter is situated outside Polokwane, in the Limpopo Province of South Africa. Wet concentrate is received from various concentrators along the Eastern Bushveld Complex, with 60% of the total concentrate received being from UG2 reef and 40% from Merensky reef. The concentrate grade differs from 35 g/t to 110 g/t, and from this a PGM-rich nickel-copper matte is produced. The furnace matte produced is sent to the ACP converter in Rustenburg. The Anglo Platinum concentrators, from which concentrate is received, are Lebowa, Potgietersrus, Amandelbult, and Union, as well as the joint venture Modikwa. The concentrate is fed to two flash dryers that utilise coal-fired, fluidized-bed hot-gas generators to produce the hot gas that will drive off the moisture, leaving a fine bone-dry concentrate to feed to the furnace. The dry concentrate is pneumatically transferred to a storage silo before being transferred to the feed bins situated above the furnace. Lime, if required as a flux, may be transferred separately to the furnace feed bin by a pneumatic system. The concentrate and lime is fed from the feed bins onto airslides and into the furnace. The feed rate is automatically controlled, and the system is set up to optimize the power to feed ratio. The electric furnace is nominally rated at 68 MW and the power is transferred into the furnace using six 1.6 m diameter Söderberg electrodes. Concentrate is melted by energy generated when electric current passes through the electrodes and resistive slag layer. On melting, two immiscible phases form: slag and matte. Furnace matte, containing the bulk of the base metal sulphides and PGMs, is denser than slag and collects naturally at the bottom of the furnace. The furnace is constructed of a combination of refractory brick and water-cooled copper coolers. The furnace sidewalls and hearth are cooled by air drawn through the area by cooling fans. The hearth and matte zone are constructed from refractory bricks. The copper coolers reside only in the slag zone of the furnace along the entire perimeter of the furnace. One staggered row of plate coolers is installed above the waffle coolers along the perimeter of the furnace. Matte is tapped periodically through one of the two matte tapholes into 35-ton refractory-lined ladles, and cast into matte ingots on a casting machine. The cooled matte is discharged onto a concrete slab for cooling and then transferred by front-end loaders to the crushing plant. The matte is first crushed in a jaw crusher and then a Rhodax cone crusher to a size of 2 mm before it is loaded into tankers and sent to the ACP. The low-grade slag is tapped from the furnace through a water-cooled copper insert into a short water-cooled copper ?hot launder? which discharges into a granulation cold launder. The granulated slag slurry flows to three rake classifiers, from which the coarse slag is discharged onto a conveyor to dewatering silos. The dewatered slag from the silos is dumped. The water overflow from the classifiers reports to two thickeners where the water is clarified, and the thickener underflow is returned to the rake classifiers. The smelter is a zero-effluent plant and all the water from the slag silos where the slag is dewatered, as well as the storm water, is pumped to the process water dam from where it is pumped back into the plant for process water use. The off-gas from the furnace is drawn through a forced draught cooler and into a high temperature baghouse. The dust collected in the baghouse is pneumatically transferred into bins above the furnace and is fed via the concentrate airslides. The cleaned off-gas is then vented through the main stack.

Jan 1, 2006

By J. Griesel, P. H. F. Bouwer, K. Bisaka

Transalloys produces 160 000 tons of SiMn per annum from five AC submerged-arc furnaces. The lime-ore melt from two AC open-arc furnaces is contacted with SiMn to produce 50 000 tons of medium carbon FeMn per annum. Metallics in the slag are reclaimed in a jigging plant, which has been in operation since 1999. The flow of materials between the jigging plant and furnaces has been optimised. The amount of recycle slag in the feed of the SiMn furnaces has been decreased by more than 30% which still provides satisfactory stability of the furnace operation. The jigging plant has absorbed all the additional slag generated, to recover SiMn metal. A review of the raw materials used and operating parameters for SiMn production was also undertaken. Slag to metal ratios were decreased by more than 30% by reducing the slag recycle, removing magnesite from the recipe and introducing high-grade ore. Electrode penetration was improved by reducing coke levels and by utilising more reactive coal. The pitch circle diameter (PCD) was reduced to get a better operating stability on furnace no 5 using the MINSTRAL Control System. Energy consumption on the furnaces improved by more than 15% while SiMn production increased as a result by more than 18%.

Jan 1, 2004

By G. D. Buson

Driefontein Consolidated Limited has a proud history in the South African gold mining industry dating back to March 1945 with the formation of the West Driefontein Gold Mining Company. The reclamation gold plant at West Driefontein was originally built as a uranium recovery plant in 1970. With the collapse of the uranium oxide yellow cake market, the uranium plant was closed in 1988and successfully converted into a gold plant, recovering gold from repulped tailings dams1. The West Driefontein Reclaim plant utilized milling, leaching, conventional rotary vacuum filtration and cementation to recover the gold at a rate of 200,000 dry tons per month. The No. 1 tailings dam (at a head grade of 0.8 Au g/t) began to near the end of its life during 1996, and the next slimes dams to be treated, the No. 2tailings dam (at a lower head grade of 0.56 Au g/t) was found too marginal for reprocessing using the filtration technology. Alternate technologies were investigated, particularly the carbon-in-pulp (CIP) plant based on the Anglo-American Corporation (AAC) pump-cell technology at the Vaal Reefs Exploration and Mining Company?s East gold plant which was operating profitably at lower head grades2. The AAC pump-cell technology is based on the carousel mode of operation2. The suitability of CIP technology for the West Driefontein Reclaim plant was investigated using a pilot plant pump-cell supplied by Kemix The data gathered were utilized in sizing a full scale AAC pump-cell plant. This plant was motivated, built and commissioned on the 22nd of November 1996. Incorporating 6 eighty cubic metre AAC pump-cells. The West Driefontein Reclaim plant initially treated repulped slimes dam material. A subsequent change of feed material to current arisings (from the main gold plant) occurred in1997 in order to convert mills for waste rock treatment. Currently the reclaim plant treats a combination of current arisings and waste rock (milled at the reclaim site). The new CIP plant replaced twenty-seven rotary vacuum filters. A comparison between the filters and CIP in terms of operating costs was undertaken, as well as a performance analysis of the CIP plant to determine its flexibility in terms of variation of the throughput, pulp density, gold input, leaching efficiency prior to CIP, and the rate of carbon movement.

Jan 1, 1999

A localized nonlinear recoverable resource estimate technique has been applied using typical feasibility or new mining drilling data configurations drawn from a massive database from a mined-out area on a hydrothermal gold deposit. The results were then compared with the corresponding 8 m x 5 m grid grade-control data in order to determine the efficiency of the approach and the validity of the recoverable resource estimates for mine planning and financial forecasts.

Jan 1, 2014

By I. J. Barker

Keywords: Submerged-arc furnace, plasma furnace, d.c. furnace, scale up, Søderberg electrodes, smart grid, demand side management, load shedding This paper argues that the scale up of furnaces and the supply of electricity are going to be two major issues that will affect the ferro-alloy industry in the near future, and that economic factors will drive this development. The most common type of furnace for producing ferro-alloys at present is the submerged-arc furnace with three electrodes, fed from a three-phase a.c. electrical supply. The scale up of this technology has now reached a fundamental constraint, which is caused by the electrical reactance of the secondary circuit. If the economy of any further scale up is to be achieved in the future then a different technology will have to be used. The supply of electrical power in future is likely to become a more complex issue than it is at present. Existing submerged-arc furnaces tend to run at fairly steady loads, but the ability to swing the load under demand-side management may offer advantages, and may allow a furnace to get cheaper power from the organisations that supply this power. This will have to be counterbalanced against the nuisance factors incurred by having a varying load in the operation of the furnace. Various options are therefore discussed in this paper. The possibility of scale up of Søderberg electrodes is discussed, as well as the use of d.c. power and multiple electrodes. Some of the issues with load swinging are also examined. A particular scenario is also briefly presented to show that considerable further scale up of ferro-alloy furnaces is still possible.

Jan 1, 2011